;D ;D
I am starting to see the connection ;D
I think the last time I intentionally dove without a shelter was with you on Green Lake when my neck seal leaked. You can still have an adventure without being miserable.
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I totally agree Nate! Heres proof, Young Joe is totally relaxed, and comfortable, just getting frustrated, at how long it took us to open the hole and stretch out the lines for him to go icing.
The G-men are efficient in a blitzkrieg kinda way. I like it when people think out side the box. There are things to be learned from others experiences. Some things that work for some, may not be someone else's cup of tea. I like the way you guys have a rhythm to cycling in the divers. Very fluid (pun intended). I also like the way the G-men cut so many holes in a day - More time on top of the ice means less time under it, and that throws the advantage to the competition >
. We use a 4'x4'x4' triangle hole, and very seldom do we dive out of more than one per day. I noticed the holes you guys cut are considerably smaller (and some are rectangular ???) Have you ever had two divers down at the same time with such a spindly sized hole? I would think this would induce some pucker factor if there were two challenged divers at the same time. Everyone you dive with must be using a slung stage for a bailout bottle, as my 20 CF pony is attached right to my main tank and would not fit in or out of that small a hole [
read square peg in a triangle hole]. Now that the ice is getting too thin to drive out on the ice with a truck (or van in some cases), are you guys back to attaching the ropes to the ice with screws instead of the bumper? Pushing the ice block under will definitely eliminate a back strain that could mess a guy up for quite a while. Does the last diver of that hole swim a loop around the block to "lasso" it? I would be nervous about that but that's just me. With out a shelter do you have worries about blowing a frozen zipper? Or are those Vikings (and I think Joes is a Whites but I am not sure what Robert has) more durable than the DUI that I am familiar with. I noticed in one of the pics there was a small propane torch for thawing zippers :o. Do you guys bring warm water with you or do you heat water on the ice?
These questions are not slams of any sort (well maybe one or two are, but hey...) I am just trying to figure out how team G does business so successfully. Thanks Steve for divulging the locations of the lakes you have been in. Except for Minnetonka, I haven't been in any of them yet. We might be missing out by spending most of our time in Green and not expanding our horizons. Its such a turbid lake in the summer that the mysteries that it could hold can only be viewed in the winter. Our [glow=red,2,300]Master Dive Plan[/glow] was only based on 3 bodies of water: Green, Spectacle, and Forest Lake. Now we never even got into Spec this Ice season as the viz is so good there in the summer and it has tons of diving pressure for that reason, we dismissed it from the list. We did try Knife Lake once (even though it wasn't on the list) and it turned out to be a dud. We dove Forest Lake a few times and it turned out to be kinda profitable ;D. So win, lose or draw, We will take our chances and finish our season on Green Lake (whether it is this weekend or weather permitting next weekend). Let me know when you want the dive logs and I will scan them into a PDF and attach them in this thread for the world to see.
John
Good Evening John,
Perhaps I can answer some of your questions, I personally haven't cut a square or rectangular hole, since darkhousing (spearing) with my father who has been dead for more then 26 years, we have used some, on rare occasion, typically offered by darkhousers, but I've not cut one. I understand groups like the GLSPS's reasoning for doing so, like this year on the Hercules where you have teams diving with the potential for multiple teams in the water/hole at one time. We (the G men :-\) all dive alone, well except for the one dive I did with Young Joe on the Excelsior, a few weeks back, were we dive in pairs the hole is cut a bit bigger. So, if your challenged, and you start to pucker, :-* John, you do have the hole to yourself. We are, up until the addition on my slightly stockier friend Robert, a thin group. I have had a request to make the hole larger for a class this winter and I did that. We are quite comfortable with the hole size, I believe, and will let the G-men weigh in on this.
We all dive with side slung 30cf pony's, thats required by us, and only makes good sense when diving alone. Decades ago I used a main tank mounted pony, but got away from it after going side slung due to the number of advantages it affords, especially under the ice, one being jockyability in the hole. We normally attach to the safety chain rings on one of the truck hitches with locking biners, rather then ice screws, just because its quick and easy, where the trucks are not there, as on Prior and Elmo we use screws. We always push the block down, and have all done so, alone, (surprising easy, lol, with a drysuit on) I work in the heavy union trades, and can not justify the risk/strain/potential back blowout of two guys wrestling a block out while standing on wet ice, one bad slip and your work days could be done, for good. We do lasso the block, and remove the diver from the hole before pulling the block back towards the hole, and keep someone with a spud at the ready if the block were to follow the diver. The torch is used used as a multi purpose tool to start the stove for heating water, to light the heater, and on occasion to warm a zipper. Viking makes a good suit, it is interesting to read about its warrantee period in different chemicals, I seem to recall something like 8 hours in 54% sulfuric acid, been very happy with mine, drys quick, cleans easy, patches easy, if only it would talc and lube its own zippers, and was impressed with Steves free replacement after 3 years. I will be happy to discuss, and think we should, these and our other techniques with you and Nate at the,,,,, "awards ceremony".
I would like to say, that I've been icing since Jan 18, 1981 ,( my 12th dive), and what works for us may not work for other groups. My name has been on this since the beginning, and my opinion is nothing more then that. It is important to know the skills and more importantly the limitations of those you venture out onto, and under the ice with. TRINITY
I have no problem with the size of holes Terry cuts. If I weren't OK with them, I would not dive through them. No one has been pushed into diving, that was not comfortable, and that is the way it should be. I have known Terry for a couple years now, and have been diving with him, Joe, and Steve from then on. Heck I probably have half of my dives logged, while diving with them. We have a good group. Go G-Men!!!  ;D
as a "junior g-man" of the stouter variety I'll "weigh-in" too about hole dimensions... I figure I'm just a junior g-man since I've only managed to actually drop in once this winter and cramped up before finding any anchor treasures! - but it has been fun to be support and conversation crew a couple other times! The guys do cut fairly minimalist holes, but even I was able to squeeze in without much trouble. a little wiggle of the pony to get lined up as I was sliding into the hole was all it took. coming back to the hole is quite easy - just swim up to it and line your tank up wih a point and you just fit in pretty naturally. one nice thing about a smaller hole is that it makes it a little easier for the surface guys to assist the diver up - you can get two guys closer to the diver for making an easier lift. I did feel as a diver that it was harder for me to help them lift me out since I couldn't get my feet braced as I was coming up, but it wasn't a big deal.
here are some pros and cons I see on smaller holes:
smaller block to man-handle
less cutting - doesn't wear out your sawman as bad - good for multiple holes in a day
helps support crew manhandle the divers in and out
may require a little pony wiggle to dropping in
sometimes a little tight when diver is trying to hand out multiple finds!
in the unlikely event of sending in the second diver for a "rescue" of some sort - it could definitely be an issue trying to get a potentially unconscious diver back out - trying to coordinate pushing a diver into the hole and communicating between rescue diver and surface guys could be a problem.
it boiled down to this for me - if I hadn't been comfortable dropping in, Terry would have been willing to fire the saw up to make the hole bigger! so it wasn't a real problem, just a perceived one! Team G talks big about being lean and mean and leaving smoking holes in the ice from recovering anchors at mach speed, but they can be talked into a slower approach if they are asked to do so!
it's all about what we as divers are comfortable with. if you're not comfortable about something, you either call your dive or you speak up and things get adjusted! it's all good!
LOL I just had a flash back to the ice cert class last year when we had a shelter, it was anchored to multiple trucks due to really strong wind. Terry locked his keys in his truck and Joe was frozen into his suit. Joe's a champ though- coffee at Mc Donald's afterwords still zippered in looked very natural. ;D
Terry and John covered most but I'll confirm and add as well. John is correct, it's kind of like the golden rule about ending dives for any reason. Someone says, Make the hole bigger. It gets bigger, no big deal. You want a buddy, you get a buddy. We do solo for anchors because the pull outs are safer and faster for one diver. I don't jump Tonka wrecks or any hazardous site solo. Other may but I don't, summer or winter. I have no problem on an ice dive solo. If the vis is poor, I stay close to the hole, say 25 feet and I search really well. I get spooked being 100+ with vis below 20. I work my way out as I feel or end the dive. I've had a few 5 minutes dives this year.
Small holes are fine. I've buddy via a tiny hole, it's not as you would think. One dips under and the second follows. I know for a fact, if you want out, it's not difficult to make it clear your coming out. I can get myself out of the hole without help in seconds. I can't do that on large holes. I know Terry and Joe can do the same. It's easy for us but then we are naturally gymnastic with our wire frames.
Lastly, I've been in the hole to recover the block and it's went in and up. It's not scary at all. It went down once and it's going to go down again. Any of my buddies would push it back down for me even if it meant a wet leg or two. I am still roped up and I have my gear. I'd say I would easily have 20 minutes of air. Getting under the block happen on a dive shop ice, not one of ours. It was a few years back and it lasted less than 30 seconds.
We've also had the block slide back to the hole but the tenders always have drysuits on so you just put a foot on and push the block off the other way. It's very easy and even if it did come in the hole, you just call someone and step onto the block and down it goes.
Lastly, seeing how we do it every weekend you just get good at things. Like, I rig Terrys gear if he's in first but cutting the hole. Saves him the effort. Everyone just knows what's happening and does what's needed.
Hot water in a cooler is the best. We heat it at the first hole because you only need after the first dives. It stays hot all day. You also don't need 20 gallons! 1 stock pot is plenty, boil and then cut with cold to temp.
I always have ice screws if we need them. When the ice was too thin for screws. I augured two holes about 5 feet apart and fished the line through to tie an "American Triangle". I did this about 20 feet from the cut hole and the ice was maybe 5.5 inches. I was worried the heat transfer though the ice screws would melt them out. I've seen a lot of rot around ice screw late in the year to the point I could pull them out with a running pull. The last method if you pull the ice out is to tie the block. It freezes to the ice as well.
Misery is a toll you pay for real adventure. All the history books support this. If is wasn't a little miserable everyone would dive ice. Seeing how we only got 7 guys diving out of 1200, I'll assume the rest know misery is unavoidable.
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I dive because I enjoy it. For me it is a very relaxing and Zen like experience. The competition has definitely taken some of that away. I can still have an adventure without suffering. I bust ass all week long @ work with efficiency, and sometimes doing things I don't enjoy. But that is why I get paid to do it, because it's work. I like my weekends to be a little more relaxing,slower paced and with as little misery as possible. Finding anchors is an added bonus. Do adverse conditions and weather increase the challenge? Yes but along with that we take extra measures to prevent misery and suffering. If it doesn't become fun anymore, why bother. This is the only year I will be competing because of the above reasons. 8)
I don't think anyone is in next year. I never got to mille lacs, that can't happen again. I like that pond too much.
Misery is a toll you pay for real adventure. All the history books support this. If is wasn't a little miserable everyone would dive ice. Seeing how we only got 7 guys diving out of 1200, I'll assume the rest know misery is unavoidable.
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I dive because I enjoy it. For me it is a very relaxing and Zen like experience. The competition has definitely taken some of that away. I can still have an adventure without suffering. I bust ass all week long @ work with efficiency, and sometimes doing things I don't enjoy. But that is why I get paid to do it, because it's work. I like my weekends to be a little more relaxing,slower paced and with as little misery as possible. Finding anchors is an added bonus. Do adverse conditions and weather increase the challenge? Yes but along with that we take extra measures to prevent misery and suffering. If it doesn't become fun anymore, why bother. This is the only year I will be competing because of the above reasons. 8)
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Misery is a toll you pay for real adventure. All the history books support this. If is wasn't a little miserable everyone would dive ice. Seeing how we only got 7 guys diving out of 1200, I'll assume the rest know misery is unavoidable.
[/quote]
I dive because I enjoy it. For me it is a very relaxing and Zen like experience. The competition has definitely taken some of that away. I can still have an adventure without suffering. I bust ass all week long @ work with efficiency, and sometimes doing things I don't enjoy. But that is why I get paid to do it, because it's work. I like my weekends to be a little more relaxing,slower paced and with as little misery as possible. Finding anchors is an added bonus. Do adverse conditions and weather increase the challenge? Yes but along with that we take extra measures to prevent misery and suffering. If it doesn't become fun anymore, why bother. This is the only year I will be competing because of the above reasons. 8)
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OK, we have pushed the envelope, well beyond the bankrupt state of the USPostal Service, it is time, for all good things, to come to an end,,,,, turn out the lights, the party's over :'(. This is THE OFFICIAL ENDING WEEKEND of Trinity's 1st annual icing/anchoring challenge, March 19-20th 2011. Spring begins on Sunday, what better end. I could not be more impressed with the sportmanship shown amongst all the slush slinging (almost exclusively from that group of henchmen, Team Isanti) the hometown team has prevailed, we have been down all contest, but yet have carved and clawed our way back to Steve solidly holding first place, we have continued to climb against seemingly insurmountable odds, how did we know for three straight weeks we would choose lakes that had, next to no anchors at all, and STILL find one or two there. Even Molly, continualy taking pics with my new big saw stating, "Terry, you are so much man," to inspire me, onward to cut, not just one, but to cut two, then three, onto four, as my endurance built up and then,,,,,finally 5 HOLES, a day. I cant hardly believe it myself.
I need to go rest my typing finger, to be able to pull the trigger, of my huge saw, for tomorrow we must naugh, that last bit of claw, of anchors holding the dirt, as I get ready to tear off my shirt, not just to be like an Irish flirt, but to raise my hand like wing blowing up a skirt, ONWARD TO VICTORY FOR THE G-MEN TO ASSERT! TRINITY