I was wondering what y'all were using where and how to attach the argon bottle, and what size bottle you have?
I have two different bottles myself, a LP AL14 (14cf at 2000psi) and an AL6 (6cf at 3000psi). I mount the LP AL14 to the backtanks (I don't use this bottle very often anymore), and I just put together the mounting system from for my 6cf.
I have tried different ways - all with their pros and cons - so let's hear it and learn from eachother...
DRE, I don't have an argon bottle but I'm wondering exactly what you meant by mounting your AL14 to your back tanks. Did you band it to one of your back gas cylinders like some people mount pony's? Isn't that frowned upon by DIR as a snag hazzard or is it tucked close enough to the plate as not to be an issue? I'm just curious. I liked the way Richard mounted his argon on his single tank rig. It looked like he just had it attached with webbing to the side of the backplate.
I have an Al14 and an Al6 and I am using the 6 with a loop of webbing on the plate and some bungie at the base of the plate to hold the valve. One of these days I am going to make a modified version with a bit of webbing and velcro that bolts to the side of the plate so that the bottle can be pulled tight. I have a picture around somewhere.
JoelW
DIR mounts the larger argon bottles on the backtank - it is mainly used in bigger caves, wrecks or OW. The bottle is mounted on the left hand side as low as possible on the backtank, riding in the slipstream. While it possibly could be snag hazard, so is the manifold and backgas regs to a certain degree (I guess that's why you have a buddy around).
That's how I used to have my 6cf bottle mounted as well until this last weekend. The only downside with this system is that you cannot remove the bottle under water, which could possibly cause problems. Note that the proper way to both mount the 6cf or 14cf bottles is that you always should be able to remove them UW, and relocate with the help of a buddy. That's where velcro systems come into play.
One other way of doing it is to slide the 6cf bottle with a large loop of webbing attached to the bottle over the buckle and left hip d-ring on the waiststrap, and then use a piece of bungee cord to hold it close to the backplate - not unlike mounting the light canister on the right side.
Dear DRE,
Thought it would be nice to provoke some discussion, not trying to attack or put your post down. So here we go. Why would you ever want to remove your argon bottle underwater? Have you ever had a problem where you have needed to remove your argon bottle? Have you ever heard first hand from anyone needing to remove their argon bottle? If so, who and why? I'm curious from a safety standpoint. I don't want to be putting my life in grave danger because of a small configuration issue. With the webbing atachment method on the side of the backplate, it is nearly impossible to have an entanglement because of the position of the bottle under your shoulder. Also, who do think defines what is "proper?" Is it DIR, is it from past experiences you've had, or from one of your instructors? You say in your post "the proper way to both mount the 6cf or 14cf bottles is that you always should be able to remove them UW, and relocate with the help of a buddy." Also, not saying this is wrong, but I am of the opinion you should never need to rely on your buddy underwater for anything. You should be completely self sufficient. Your buddy is your dive partner, not a safety blanket.
Love ya man, and no you can't have my Bud Light.
Happy Diving,
Richard
Rich,
what I meant by proper is indeed DIR - now we all know what your position is with regards to DIR, so that's kinda of a moot discussion anyways.
Any bottle mounted to the backgas is an entanglement hazard, so one needs to be able to remove it in case of an entanglement, or going through oddly shaped restrictions, where you might fit going in one way, but being unable to get through coming out.
Same goes for the small bottle, although the chances of that happening are quite smaller - you do, however, have your light canister mounted on the right side that way for the exact same reason - I don't see you dive with your canister mounted on the backplate, backgas or butt mounted, right?
As far as relying on buddies is concerned - we both know that being self-reliant is very important for the technical diver, but the reason one dives in a team is to have multiple redundancies built in through your teammembers. In case I'm entangled and need to remove my argon bottle, I will rely on my team to help me, rather than trying to hack away at it myself and thus to expose myself to a potentially far greater CF.
I firmly believe in assessing a multitude of options and to choose carefully from all viable solutions. Having an open mind to people with a different approach is part of continuing education, and that's what I'm all for. I weighed the different options with regards to argon bottle attachment, and I believe that the arguments presented by DIR to have the bottle removable UW makes more sense to me than the opposite. I personally don't want to find out myself why I'd need it in a situation where I don't have it, and maybe have to pay the ultimate price for it! Divers with far greater experience than I have came up with this solution, and I respect their decision and concur with their arguments.
What you decide, Rich, is up to you...
BTW, I prefer your Blatz anyway.
DIR mounts the larger argon bottles on the backtank - it is mainly used in bigger caves, wrecks or OW. The bottle is mounted on the left hand side as low as possible on the backtank, riding in the slipstream. While it possibly could be snag hazard, so is the manifold and backgas regs to a certain degree (I guess that's why you have a buddy around).
That's how I used to have my 6cf bottle mounted as well until this last weekend. The only downside with this system is that you cannot remove the bottle under water, which could possibly cause problems. Note that the proper way to both mount the 6cf or 14cf bottles is that you always should be able to remove them UW, and relocate with the help of a buddy. That's where velcro systems come into play.
One other way of doing it is to slide the 6cf bottle with a large loop of webbing attached to the bottle over the buckle and left hip d-ring on the waiststrap, and then use a piece of bungee cord to hold it close to the backplate - not unlike mounting the light canister on the right side.
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DRE, I think you missed Richards point. You stated that the Argon bottle should be able to be removed UW, and relocatee with the help of a buddy.
Are you saying the bottle couldn't be removed with out the assistance of a buddy?
The way Richard set his system up (and the way I had it for a long time as well) is such that it's impossible to remove the bottle without the help of a buddy, and extremely hard to remove UW with the help of a buddy. The only way to do it is to unscrew the reg from the bottle, remove the loop that holds the valve, and then slide the bottle out of two sewn webbing loops. As I said before, it is a very secure system, but impractical when you need to remove the bottle UW.
The system I changed to does not have this downside.
As far as removing and replacing a bottle is concerned, if you have a system that incorporates a velcro closure, it is always possible to remove the bottle, and depending on how it's rigged you might be able to replace it yourself or not.
Hope this helps,
David.
Are you going back to mounting your argon on your backtanks, because that's DIR, not the system you're speaking of. I'm not mounting my bottle on the back tanks, so I don't understand the comment "Any bottle mounted to the backgas is an entanglement hazard, so one needs to be able to remove it in case of an entanglement, or going through oddly shaped restrictions, where you might fit going in one way, but being unable to get through coming out." If DIR is what is proper, then why aren't you a GUE diver, don't like the terrible attitude? I like the fact that you analyze every possible problem underwater and try to prevent them. Most tech divers don't do this and that's why they die. That's also what sets our divers apart from most of the other "technical" divers in town. I'm proud to be diving with you guys, even if some of you have given in to the dark side, IE- DIR. Remember you don't have to be DIR to be Hogarthian.
I'd rather DIE than DIR. Doing it Exceptionally!
P.S> I've a cold Blatz waiting for you, but you might want to try the Twild cat Ice, and no I didn't mean wild cat it's really twild cat. Good Stuff! :-X
Happy Diving,
Richard
For large argon bottles, 14-30's, you can use velcro pony straps to strap it onto the left side of your doubles. This does get to be a bit wide inside wrecks.
I prefer to use a 6cuft. bottle on a piece of webbing that slips over my belt buckle and slides up tight against the left hand side on my backplate. I then have a piece of bungie to hold it in place.
The MAIN part of this system is that it can be CUT AWAY in an emergency. That's the same reason why everything is attached to clips by cave line. You can always CUT something away if the metal part freezes up. You never want a metal to metal connection.
Jon