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+---- Thread: Who disagrees with DIR and why? (/showthread.php?tid=1730)
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - willadams67 - 09-11-2004
I see alot of people around here who talk about DIR and what not, but I believe that almost no one around here is truly DIR. I have seen DIR divers work befor. It is a team effort with all of the newer divers setting up tanks staging tanks and or acting as saftey divers. The older folks where the only ones having the fun, diving. I had talked with them about this and was told it was common.
I don't think someone can buy a jacket or in this case diffrent dive gear and just say they are on the team. Some people take a fundamentals class and say then they are DIR, but there not.
I would be suprised if more then one or two people in MN scuba where truly DIR. Scuba kitty was not and she was the moderator. What does that say about DIR in MN?
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - LKunze - 09-12-2004
That's interesting Jim. How many DIR divers have you met? There really aren't "a lot" of DIR divers locally that I've met but of the ones I have met I've found probably 90% of them to be very friendly and open to discussion. ???
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - LKunze - 09-12-2004
See, this is the kind of thing that contributes to the bad image of DIR. Will, you clearly do not like DIR and that's fine but offer something constructive here like the thread was intended to do. What you are doing contributes to flame wars. Give some specifics of things you do not like about the DIR system. Don't be judgemental on whether you think someone is DIR or not when you clearly are not a DIR diver. I'm not ripping you here but I just don't understand your negativity without your offering some details. If someone passes the DIR fundamentals class and has the skills down, operates within the DIR framework then I disagree with you, I think they CAN be a DIR diver. DIR diving is NOT just for tech diving, it carries over to all diving...even recreational diving. You don't need to be certified to Tech 1 or full cave to be a DIR diver. In terms of the gear, I've seen a lot of local divers specifically several customers of SD&T that dive a backplate/wing and long hose setup that are not DIR divers and have no interest in being a DIR diver. Many of whom I have done dives with and found them to be pretty darn good divers. Some people and I'm not pointing at you Will, but some people have such a hatred for DIR because of a few morons on the internet or whatever, that the minute they see someone in a DIR-esque gear configuration, I wonder if they start assuming that said divers are snobs or "think they are on the team" which I think is very untrue in most cases.
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - FMT - 09-12-2004
I personally do not use the *S* word.
On the other hand, if someone is an a-hole then they are an a-hole - regardless of their diving philosophy. I have met ybod divers who are good people. I also know two ybod divers who I would not be near without a nuclear contamination suit (when you are that full of sh*t it tends to splatter). Should I judge all of them by the actions of those two? Of course not and the same can be said for DIR divers.
T
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - LKunze - 09-12-2004
I personally do not use the *S* word.
On the other hand, if someone is an a-hole then they are an a-hole - regardless of their diving philosophy. I have met ybod divers who are good people. I also know two ybod divers who I would not be near without a nuclear contamination suit (when you are that full of sh*t it tends to splatter). Should I judge all of them by the actions of those two? Of course not and the same can be said for DIR divers.
T
[/quote]
Very good analogy, I couldn't agree with you more.
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - FMT - 09-12-2004
You are not real specific here about where you were or who you talked to. From your description I would say that what you saw was a *BIG* DIR dive that REQUIRES staging and safety divers. You are absolutely right that IT IS A TEAM EFFORT and the new divers help with the staging and safety as part of the mentoring process as they build up to actually doing the big dives. Whether they had fun or not is up to them. I would have had fun I'm sure.
T
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - scubadog76 - 09-12-2004
To reply to your reply on the out of air business.....
I understand how the DIR method came into place, but I still do not agree it's the best method to help in an OOG emergency. If a buddy gives you the out of air signal, they are indicated to you that they need you to control their emergency. By giving away your primary you are giving up control, however temporary that may be for, you are still giving them control of you. When wearing a hood or swimming at different angles you may not always be able to instantly locate YOUR backup under your chin where it's supposed to be. You may be fighting the bouyency of 2 at this same time. It's everybodys goal to help out their buddy but you gotta make sure your always in a position to rescue them. Handing them my Octo just seems alot more certain. Fewer steps=quicker response.
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - tcjtn0 - 09-12-2004
This is a side post about a comment that some of us DO use DIR confiigurations on our gear. This weekend at Wazee while ascending after a 100+ foot dive because of a low on air condition with my buddy , we shared air off of my 7ft hose starting at about 60 feet coming up the ascent line. (I gave up my primary and used my necklaced 2nd) We were able to stay on opposite sides of the line , which at the time had other divers ascending up the line too. It really worked out great and we had a nice , SAFE safety stop !
For me , I am not DIR by any means , but I SURE love a lot of the gear configs etc , which DO WORK in the real dive world !!! Understand this was not a OOG situation , but I switched to my necklace octo *BEFORE* handing off my primary to the other diver (I kept it in my control until I knew I WAS SET!!!) Even with my dry gloves , hood etc , grabbing my necklace and switching regs took only about a second or two , even while holding onto the ascent line. And like FMT , I try to practice switching off from Primary to Secondary at least 2-3 times during every dive just to keep myself in practice.
Just my HUMBLE 2 cents worth... :-[
I wouldn't DARE say one way is better than the other , but for ME personally , this gear config works just wonderful.
Jean
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - jasondbaker - 09-12-2004
Over time you will find that this is very similar to commercial or military diving. The young ones serve as tenders for a couple years and make their way up the leadership ladder. Dunno if the actual work is fun or not. I think it would be amazing to be part of any team that is pushing into new frontiers.
Re:Who disagrees with DIR and why? - jasondbaker - 09-12-2004
Foreword: The long hose and bungeed backup was not invented by DIR. It was invented by cave divers, then adopted by wreck divers, and finally trickled down to us (the little people).
I don't understand the "control" analogy. You may feel uncomfortable taking a reg out of your mouth during a dive. But that is why you should practice these skills (just like mask clearing). You have two sources capable of delivering gas. Your buddy has zero. Who is in control again?
It is likely that in an emergency your buddy will rip the reg out of your mouth. He isn't going to drift up to you calmly and give the OOA signal like in your pool class. If you aren't prepared for this you very well may experience a "control" issue.
I guarantee you will be able to locate your bungeed backup under your chin. Some people can even put it in their mouth without using their hands. Now where was that octo again? Clipped to a octo holder, tucked in the belt, floating behind you? (remember the primary/octo retrieval sweep manuver you were taught in OW class)
Question: Is it easier for buddies to maintain bouyancy with a 2.5ft hose or a 7 foot hose? I am sending you the answer telepathicly right now.
Scubadog, you and I need to go out to the lake and do some air sharing drills. Just be sure to place your new hose order before you go out.