Cave Diving

[arcFlash]

I think it's time I take a week vacation to FL and take a cave class. I have Deco and Adv Nitrox but I need more practice as I got it this year.

Anyway, What's the word on the street for a good cave class? What do I look for in an instructor or shop? What experience should I have?

Thanks.

[jleech]

I'll start with your last question.  I can't say for certain for all agencies, but your Adv Nitrox/Deco should be more than enough to qualify for cave training as far as certifications go.  As far as experience, you should have near perfect buoyancy.  If you don't have it when you start, you will when you finish, or you may not pass.  Most cave instructors take this very seriously.

If you visit Florida often, I would recommend taking the classes in stages.  Cavern and Intro to Cave over 4 days, which would let you practice a day or two afterwards.  Then do another 4-5 days to complete your Full cave.

I did this over 3 phases (Cavern/Intro, Apprentice, Full cave) over a period of about 18 months, with at least one trip just to practice/fun dive as Apprentice.  .  There is a lot of things to digest and technique to master, and most people can't do it in 7-8 days.  You really need a break to digest it, and have time to practice between training.

If you already frog kick exclusively, and stay horizontal with your body position and have near perfect buoyancy you likely could do it all in one week.  If you have not frog kicked, I'd recommend at least two different training times, to give you time to practice in between.

As for instructors, it's a pretty close group in the N Florida area, and most active instructors are good.  You could check out safecavediving.com (NACD) or nsscds.com (NSS/CDS) which are 2 of the training agencies for instructors.

Richard Dreher who used to own Scuba Dive and Travel is teaching Cave in N Florida now.  I've had TDI certifications with him as instructor, and would trust him.  If you want to go through a dive shop.  I know Ginnie Springs employs very qualified instructors, and Cave Excursions which is one of the major fill stations in the area also has instructors affiliated with them.  I really don't know any of the instructors personally except for Richard, but if you decided to go through any of the dive shops in the High Springs are, you're likely to get a good instructor.

Jeff Leech

[Kirk]

It's a great series of courses.  You'd learn a lot.  You might also become a really good diver as a result. 

I too would, if feasible, recommend taking it in steps.  Some take it all in a week.  They end up, however, pretty beat up by week's end, both physically and mentally.  I did my course in three chunks, and still got pretty beat up. 

I agree.  You need to have good buoyancy and trim.  You should have experience in doubles (if you dive open circuit), no need to feel like a new diver in a new environment.  If you dive a rebreather, you should be pretty comfortable with it (I, however, don't know much about rebreathers).  Additionally you need good awareness.  If you don't have these things, you'll get some good training, but won't necessarily pass the courses. 

As far as which dive shop to go through... well, things are a little different down there.  Most instructors don't actually work though a dive shop.  And most of the dive shops actually don't make their money giving courses or selling gear.  They make their money selling nitrox.  Here in Minneapolis, nobody makes money selling gas, but down there, they pump so much nitrox that the scale of it makes it reasonable.  Except of course Salvo and Extreme Exposure.... they make their money selling expensive flashlights. 

As far a certification organizations, don't worry about it.  Some may disagree, but NACD, NSS-CDS, TDI, GUE, IANTD, and NAUI are all well respected.  The only exception is that one with a PADI Cavern card cannot skip the first two days of training.  It's not the same level of training.  When I completed full cave I got the NACD certification, the teacher threw in the TDI card for free (he was their training director), and I paid extra for the NSS-CDS certification.  In hindsight, I should of used that money to buy another nitrox fill.  You need not have a NSS-CDS certification to join NSS-CDS (so one can dive the beautiful cave systems to which they own access, like Cow Sink). 

As to what to look for in an instructor, pick a professional.  Not someone who has a day job, and teaches a course every couple months as a hobby.  Pick someone who actually does it for a living. 

There are some bad teachers out there (just as there are up here in open water).  I've seen them in the caves.  I worry about the future of their students' well being, and the damage they may inflict on these beautiful cave systems. 

If you dive a rebreather, do it with classmates and an instructor who dive rebreathers.  If you dive open circuit, do it with classmates and an instructor diving open circuit.  Don't mix things up.  It gets confusing.

There are some good teachers down there.  I can recommend the following (note they are all open circuit):

Richard Dreher.  Former owner of Scuba Dive and Travel in South Minneapolis.  Currently owns Superior Dive Training.  Good dive buddy of mine (as is his wife).  I've observed him on about a dozen cave course dives over the past couple years.  He's really good.  He's actually teaching a free Cavern / Cave primer course in late January at Ginnie Springs, Florida.  If you can, this might be great way to see if this is something you really want to do. 

Larry Green.  Larry was my teacher (he also taught Rich Dreher, Garry Stuber, Jay, and others from up here, and co-taught with Rich people like Johnny Jokes, Stacy Dreher, Dave, Will, Dan, and Joe).  Larry's the King, but then again, one's own dive instructor is always the best instructor.........  (and yes, Angela, that beautiful woman from Switzerland with over 100 logged dives, who was my open water instructor in Utila, Honduras, .... was the best scuba diver ever.................).

Others:  Ralph DiPanfilo, Johnny Richards, Rich Courtney.  They are well respected, and really friendly people.   

I've spent about 7 weeks this past year down in North Florida fun diving in the caves.  I love it.  Once I get my drysuit and regulators back from repair, I'm heading back down there.  Hopefully within a couple weeks. 

Have fun, be safe, follow the rules, and be careful with these beautiful places.   - Kirk

[arcFlash]

Thanks everyone. I've made contact with Richard and we are looking at the end of January. 

After reading your posts, I think I'm ready. I can't remember the last time I didn't have 100% control of my buoyancy and I frog all the time. My dry suit is an inch or two too short in the inseam for me to kick symmetrical but I plan to dive my wetsuit anyway.

PS: my dry suit fits very nice overall but I need a little more leg and less torso. I'm going to have it altered after ice season.

[Kirk]

Have fun.  I might see you down there.  - Kirk

[Callahad]

I just finished up Full Cave with Johnny Richards, and can heartily reccomend him. To quote another instructor (Rich Courtney), "Johnny's one of the best around because he still believes in harassing his students." And in Johnny's own words, "if you don't understand the meaning of 'task loading' by the end of this course, I haven't done my job." I also appreciate his approach on courses with multiple students. You run the dive with your buddy. He follows along with his lights out and simply observes. On the exit half of the dive, he runs drills (killing lights, signalling people to be out of air, etc). He tries to alternate between diving in high flow systems (usually at Ginnie or Little River) with low flow systems (Peacock, Orange Grove, etc). "A diver that can dive in flow can dive in low flow. The opposite is not true."

The experience was enlightening. I'll echo the recommendation of taking the training in multiple steps, if only to cool down mentally. I did Cavern through Apprentice in one shot and was so bushed that I simply left once I was done, forgoing the two days I had slated for fun dives. When I returned for Full, it was a breeze, largely due to the three months I had to digest the training and recuperate. (Well, insofar as a several lights out exits, an airshare out of the ear, two lost line drills, three lost buddy drills, line entanglement, and two navigational "issues" can be a breeze. My training was definitely up to the task.)

Best of luck, and keep us posted on your progress!

[corndogg2]

I've been wanting to do the intro and cave as well. I was planning to do it this winter but I have no plans as of yet. Let me know if you're serious arcflash.  Maybe we can go down together.

[arcFlash]

I'm totally serious! Jan 20th to the 1st. Class date will be about the 22-25 if Richard agrees. I would have paid by now but the wife is working out vacation with her job. I'll have that today, if not I'm going without her.

You want in? I'll change the class date if it's in my window. I'm probably going to drive.

[arcFlash]

Update: Richard is a good instructor and I learned a lot. I had some gear issues on the last day of training that prevented me from controlling my trim as I needed for the touch contact exit from Peacock Springs (peanut tunnel). Richard was confident that my air cell was filling uneven but we didn't have any replacement gear so class ended and I'll have to come back or be happy with my Cavern cert.

Thanks everyone for the advice I couldn't have done this without your advice.

Most memorable: Entering Devils Ear with it just ripping!!

Insight: Caving isn't my thing. It's cool and all but it's a little too serious for me at this point in my life. I'm a better diver for having tried but I also learned it's not what I want to do. But I'm very disapointed I couldn't pass.

Steve.

[MAXFACTOR]

Arcflash,    Steve, last Nov we made several dives on Louise in Crosby, MN together.  You are a great diver and highly skilled.  Don't let it get you down.  I am going to try it sometime this year.  I have heard many divers have to retake it so don't sweat it. 

Personally, it takes a very giant of a man to say he failed the test in this forum.   You are a giant man and more importantly, you have made a decision that is best for you.  Its the divers that can't make that decision that I worry about because they end up making that dive when they don't like the end result.  If you don't like it or it doesn't feel good, DON'T DO IT.
Great job.


Maxfactor.