some one selling old ship wreck stuff on craigs list

[scubafreek864]

Please elaborate
[/quote]

I'm sure that some people would argue that the items should belong in a museum and donated rather than sold.  Some others would argue that they are personal belongings legally collected and they can be sold at will.  Details on the artifacts could open ethical arguments.  Are they historically significant?  Are they personal effects of sailors that may still have surviving family?  I'm sure there is a wide range of opinion based on what people feel is ethical based on those unknown details.
[/quote]

I was told that anything that has been in the water more than thirty days becomes property of the state, and it would be considered theft if taken out without writen approval from the state.  I don't know how this would play out with it coming from Superior, maybe if would become Federal property.

Please somebody chime in if they have anymore specific info on this.  This is what I have been told, and an example would be the wreck of the Minnehaha that was recovered from Lake Minnetonka.  The State came in and claimed posession of it after it was removed from the water by a private salvage company.

[DetectorGuy]

I dont want to get tangled up in this... debate... but... I caught a fish once that I am sure was over 30 days old and I am pretty sure that one did not belong to the state... Wait... Oh yeah, I did have to pay the State to buy a fishing license. So maybe it did belong to the state too. BUMMER, I am always being held down by the man!

In all seriousness, I think a lawyer should chime in. I think (but I have no Idea) there are antiquity laws on the books that state that unless the item is on the State Historical Registry, OR the item is believed to be over 100 years old, then the bounty belongs to the person that finds it. I know the Oddessy Group is having their hands full with the 500 million in Spanish coins they found but this is on a different scale and there are not three countries involved.

[scubafreek864]

So what you are saying is that they filled my head full of sh**?

So, is there any truth to what happened with the state taking the Minnehaha back from the company that recovered it from Minnetonka?

[doogles]

How about the simple slogan "Take only pictures and leave only bubbles."
Who cares about the legalities and other carp.Leave it behind for the rest of to enjoy.
I want to see something besides silt and sunnies.

[jleech]

Here's what may be relevent:

If the artifacts were retrieved prior to 1987, I don't know what laws might govern them, but this law basically puts the wrecks under state management.

Extracted from a page on the Minnesota Historical Society web site:

Minnesota's Submerged Cultural Resource Preservation Plan
State Historic Preservation Office
Minnesota Historical Society
June 1997



There are many laws that govern the management, preservation and interpretation of historic properties in the United States. The most recent law written specifically for submerged cultural resources, the Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987 (Public Law 100-298), effectively gives control to individual states for the management of sites on their bottomlands (see Appendix C). In the Act the federal government asserts ownership to all abandoned shipwrecks in U.S. waters, but then transfers title to the individual states. In order to come under the jurisdiction of the Abandoned Shipwrecks Act a vessel must truly be abandoned and it must be embedded in submerged lands or eligible for the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP). The definition of "abandoned" has caused the most legal difficulty. The Act also directs states to develop policies that: 1) protect natural resources and habitat areas, 2) guarantee recreational access to shipwrecks, and 3) allow for appropriate recovery of shipwrecks consistent with historical values. States are encouraged to establish underwater parks and develop management plans.


Michigan has used this to set up many shipwreck preserves.

Jeff

[Shooter]

Then maybe you will have to venture out of hand held / guided diving. Next time I am diving and find something cool or valuable, I will leave it there, draw you a map with gps coordinates, and send it to you. Spread the dive wealth around, right? NOT! I am sure that if you found the wreck of the Atocha you would leave it there for me to see. What then is the reward for the diver who boldly goes where none have gone before?  FORTUNE favors the brave!

On the other hand experiencing diving the wrecks at aisle royal made me appreciate historical shipwreck preservation. To feel like I was the first one there after thousands of other divers was pretty awesome. I feel that is up to the person who made the discovery.

[karnov]

Spread the dive wealth around, right? ... FORTUNE favors the brave!
[/quote]

I don't really think any of this is about wealth or fortune.  We're not talking about gold doubloons here.  We're talking about artifacts (portholes and stuff) from a cultural, archeological site that represents an interesting piece of history.  How can anyone enjoy or study that history if it's carried away a piece at a time?  And in my mind, outside the context of a ship, an artifact from a shipwreck isn't much more than a rusty piece of junk.  It looks a lot cooler attached to the ship it came from and underwater.  Add to that the fact that a lot of shipwreck sites are also associated with loss of life and the ethics get murkier yet.  To each his own I guess, it's a touchy subject.

On a related note - I noticed the land is for sale along Hwy. 61 that has the Madiera's anchor on display.  It used to be a gift shop and burned down like 10-15 years ago, all that's left is the parking lot, some kinda observation platform and the anchor.  Kinda made me wonder what will happen to the anchor when someone buys the land.

[Shooter]

Spread the dive wealth around, right? ... FORTUNE favors the brave!
[/quote]

I don't really think any of this is about wealth or fortune.  We're not talking about gold doubloons here.  To each his own I guess, it's a touchy subject.

On a related note - I noticed the land is for sale along Hwy. 61 that has the Madiera's anchor on display.  It used to be a gift shop and burned down like 10-15 years ago, all that's left is the parking lot, some kinda observation platform and the anchor.  Kinda made me wonder what will happen to the anchor when someone buys the land.
[/quote]

Do you think that Mel fisher was the rightful owner of his find on the atocha? Or do you think that his personal sacrifice of time, money, and loss of life should have been pushed aside so that you could view the artifacts at your leisure on a hand holding dive expedition? We may not be talking about gold in this instance, but it definitely is in the same ballpark! This is even more prevalent with saltwater wrecks. It is only a matter of time before it is completely deteriorated. Where if it is in my dive booty display case it will be preserved forever!  :o ;D 8) When I grow up I want to be a treasure hunter!

Have you considered purchasing the land and returning the anchor to the ship so I can dive it and see it with the ship? 

[karnov]

I still think we're comparing apples and oranges.  A rustly old porthole and a wealth of gold and silver are NOT in the same ballpark.  When you start bringing millions of dollars into the equation it gets pretty complicated and a lot of lawyers descend on you.  You might ask Ken Merryman how much he's banked wreck-hunting on Lake Superior over the years.... roughly zero.

And no, I'm in no position to purchase prime commercial real estate on the North Shore to 'save' a ship anchor.  It's fine where it's at, anyone can see it driving by, better than any museum.

[Shooter]

You didn't answer the question about Mel.

Your right about Ken. I think the person who puts the time and effort into the discovery gets to decide what to do with it. I look forward to diving the wrecks he has discovered and I appreciate all of his sacrifices to the diving community. He also runs a dive charter business. I hope to dive off his boat and listen to the dive stories behind the discoveries. 8)

And why wouldn't it be in the same ballpark ? Are you suggesting that merely monetary value determines salvage rights?  Are you saying there should be different rules if I find an orange as compared to an apple?