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FMT · 03-04-2003, 09:53 AM,

Discussing the dive plan and covering emergency plans like OOA are part of team based diving. Team based diving also entails a critical look at what is required for the level of the dive. I have said many times that my choice in diving team will narrow greatly from a shallow fish and coral dive to a deep trimix dive. My deep dive team are people I know and trust and we all plan and practice. Proper planning and practice means that the situation of someone spitting out the donated long hose is not likely to happen (miniscule really).
A fear of something that is very unlikely, while understandable, is easy to overcome with some knowledge and practice.
For this particular situation where the long hose is rejected and then the short hose is taken, it comes down to who is in control of the situation. The donatOR is the one in control. They are the one who is not in a full-bore panic. They are the one who can take a minute (yes you can handle not having a breathing source for a minute) to sort out the mess and get the long hose back. And once everyone has gas to breathe the donator will use that control to calm the situation and get them back home safely (even switching the OOA diver to the long hose once calm has been restored).
I have had to hand off the octo if you count having to hand the octo off to myself because of a failed mouthpiece on my primary. This doesn't really count because I knew I had the situation either handled myself or I would go to my buddy. I have seen it happen from the outside once (where I was not the donator).
Tom, if you want to practice and see for yourself with the long hose I'm sure one of us can hook you up either at a pool session or at the lake.
T

tbrown · (This post was last modified: 03-04-2003, 06:38 PM by tbrown.)

Actually GP, I am not really going out on a limb, but giving almost the full details from from my logbook, dive # 38, 09-01-01. I have heard of the "logic" of using this or that peice of equipment, but am really looking for "tried that and it worked/did not work"
Let me give the whole story and then we can anaylize from there. Went diving with a group that I had never been with before, had my wife as my buddy (always a good move), it's to be a shore dive at a lake in WI. During the breifing/gear up, I notice some things that don't seem "quite right" with some of the people in the group but I'm relitively new myself so I just listen, gear up, and go diving with my wife. We hit the water first, and have a laid back dive. We finish our dive, go to the exit point. We take off fins, partailly remove gear, exit water, and begin to walk (God it was a hike) to the car, when we hear a cry for help. Now there are a few rescue classes in the water, and we have heard these crys before (note to instructors, please have your Rescue students yell "pizza" it prevents confusion). At first I thought it was a class, but when they submerged and resurfaced the cry went out again followed by "we really need help!" I figured (correctly) this was not a drill. I jumped back in the water put on my fins and took off. It was at least 150 yrds and I covered it quick (wife said I was like a powerboat, she stayed on shore), and got to within 10 ft when I stopped. Now this is where it really got intense. As soon as I stopped I immediatly got hit with a leg cramp. Second thing that happened almost as quickly as the first, I am now pounced on by paniced diver (how he covered that space so quick is amazing). One hand (his) is on my shoulder, the other on my Octo that was secured to my chest. It appeared his only interest in my octo is to hold it, he is not even trying to put it in his mouth. I, on the other hand, am underwater, with no primary (can't find it) can't get my octo back (in his deathgrip) can't find his octo, (G@#@#m Air2) with a leg cramp (boy does this suck). I gave a good kick with my good leg (aimed for his groin), which got his hand off my shoulder, and got to the surface. 1 breath and here he comes again. His buddy intervenes, and he grabs not just her octo that she is offering, but also the primary in her mouth, once again not attempting to breathe off of them, and takes her under. I did not even try to get my regs, with one hand I grabbed his tank yoke, with the other I grabbed my BC inflator, and inflated to the point my relief valves started to give. He turns and grabs me, but this time there are no regs for him to grab, and I have enough air that I cannot go under, and I reach for his inflator/Air 2 to fill his BC. Which is apparently was what started all this in the first place, because his hose has seperated from his BC and air cannot go in. His buddy drops his weights and we get him calmed and I start working out cramp. A few other divers arrive and we tow him back to shore. Upon arrivail and debreifing, apparently both surfaced, and he tried to inflate his BC, it would not and he paniced. He spit out his own reg, which was working perfectly, spit out buddies octo, which was also perfectly functioning, and grabbed and spit out her primary as well (before I got there). So I agree with and still have no idea why anyone would reject a perfectly working reg, but I have witnessed it first hand, and I might add, much closer than I ever care to, then or ever again.

LKunze · 03-04-2003, 04:49 PM,

Jeez...what a cluster you know what of a dive. I think in a situation like you've described the key to handling it is just like Todd said in an earlier response in this thread...The air donor needs to take control of the situation and calm down the panic stricken diver. I guess my point is that even in an instance like this it's not a valid argument to go against the long hose setup IMO.

tbrown · 03-04-2003, 05:14 PM,

Anyway my apologies for the long post, but I thought a "real example" versus a hypothetical one would be more helpful. So getting back to things that I learned from this dive-
1. You can never have too much training. I don't think I waited an hour before I contacted my instructor and enrolled in Resue Diver.
2. No matter how prepared you think you are, it is never enough. No matter how you think you can anticapate a paniced diver you cannot. At the time I was in pretty good shape (bicyled, walked ect.) and my legs still cramped. Sucks to not be 21. Sad

3. Never approach paniced diver without reg in mouth, and BC fully inflated (at least on surface).
4. Check everyones gear, even if they are not your buddy, you never know.
5. Air2 sucks!
6. No matter how strange a scenerio sounds, when it happens in real life it will be much worse.
7. Air2 sucks!

Now, this is where DIR would or would not have helped.
1. Should have packed up stuff and left right after briefing.

Where it might not have helped and or been bad.
Admitedly I should have had my reg in my mouth when I approached. I thought I would have time to but cramp prevented that. I still for the life of me do not know why I took the time to secure my octo, but not my primary. However, if I would have had octo around neck instead of clipped off, I think I would have been in more trouble when he grabbed it, not less. I don't think the long hose would have helped, because this guy closed a 10' gap like lightning. I couldn't have gotten 7' away, I was lucky to get 2'.

Once again, I am not critizing those that use a long hose. It's your rig and if it's what you are comfortable with (and trained in) by all means use it. But I am questioning the thought behind it, and the paniced diver scenerio is commonly used. I really (and I mean this sincerely) wish to hear from others where in a rec, non training dive, a long hose helped. How would you have handled the preceeding dive, aside from much better, but since everyone lived and a relitively newby lived through it, it wasn't all bad. Even if hose only helped by being more comfortable.

ps Air2 sucks

LKunze · 03-04-2003, 06:03 PM,

Tom, I actually did witness a real OOA emergency with a long hose setup at Wazee at 100ft down during AOW class last summer as you probably heard in previous posts. Chris had a freeflow on a dive just after reaching our planned depth. The instructor had a long hose setup. He donated his primary to Chris and took his bungeed backup. This was a smooth transition as I'm sure Chris would agree with. Shortly after the reg handoff the instructors bungeed backup then started to freeflow as well. The instructor tried to go for his pony bottle which was clipped off on his left hip but it was hung up and he wasn't able to free it. The instructor made the decision to make an ascent and they ended up making it to the surface safely. I've done several dives with divers that didn't use the long hose while I did and it was something I went over with each diver that wasn't aware of my setup before the dive. Like I said, I'm just not convinced by your scenario to not use a long hose and don't see a long hose setup as making that described situation any worse. Proper training is the real key...if you're described situation happened at 100ft down with full panic and the panic wasn't taken control of we'd be talking about a casualty or casualties regardless of how the regs were configured.

FMT · 03-04-2003, 06:06 PM,

I think you handled yourself pretty well under the circumstances. Again the key is taking control. Strange things can and do happen when someone is in full-bore panic. In this situation the octo handoff didn't work out and his bc had broken. If you were near the surface then you should inflate your bc and/or drop your weights and he isn't going to take you down but you will take him up. That is what he wanted anyway (he just wanted to stay up like a drowning person) and you can survive until you get there a few seconds later. That is what turned out happening after you kicked him and he went for the buddy then turned back to you. You have the control and are not panicked. You dropped his weights and calmed the situation. The hose length probably is a side issue in this case. Rescue diver classes (or Stress and Rescue) cover things like how to be prepared to handle a panicked diver and what to do. So as you say, training would solve this.

JoelW · 03-04-2003, 06:13 PM,

Here is an example but it does not include a diver going psycho. I and another diver were out a little over a year ago just before everything iced up. The water temp was 34F. During the dive the other diver's reg started free flowing. He got the end of the 5' hose I had and I went to backup. We took a short pause and decided what to do next, which in this case was go up. It could have been done on a 36" octo hose. It was much easier to do with the longer hose. We weren't in each others face, in fact we may not even have been touching. That is about as good an example that I can give for a longer hose for rec diving. Being able to get air and then get space to sort things out is invaluable in my mind. As a qualifier, the other diver and I do a fair amount of diving and training together so we know, in the ideal sense anyway, how we are going to react. Anytime I go out with someone for the first time the equipment check involves the statement "if you need air grab the reg in my face. Once you have that we are going to stop and decide what to do next." Talking over the reponse to possible situations before a dive is in my mind critical to safely handling the situations. Even if it is a swim through the weeds at Square looking at fishies. The other statement I make is "Before you dump any of my weights let's talk about it. If I don't respond when you ask, feel free."

Joelw

FMT · 03-04-2003, 06:38 PM,

Dude! GP, I think my buddy beeger and I were there when this incident happened. You guys were going down the 100ft buoy line at the North dive access yes? We were worried about you guys after that ascent. Small world.
T

LKunze · 03-04-2003, 06:51 PM,

Yeah that was it, back in Sept. I believe. I saw cdtgray out there that day and Chuck from GUDC with a class he had going on out there as well. Chris and the instructor made an awfully rapid ascent man. If I remember it correctly maybe Chris can chime in on the exact details...I think he forgot to dump air from his wing on the way up and took them both on a rocket ride to the surface and they shot out of the water. I guess they both let out a huge belch after reaching the surface. I remember them taking off and I was down at the bottom by myself thinking...
"Oh man, I hope they are all right!" :o

tbrown · 03-04-2003, 07:51 PM,

I think before we go any further, that a special congratulations should go out to all that have participated on this thread. I have never seen this topic go this far without it turning downright nasty. Divers of differing opionions sharing ideas in a civilized way? (REM's "It's the end of the World as we know it" playing in the background). ;D