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05-21-2002, 04:02 AM,

I have shared the "regular" short hose configuration with my husband during practice out-of-air and when he sucked down a tank so fast on a dive that he shared mine for a few extra minutes as we may a leisurly ascent before our safety stop. Â In both cases you have to be, as you know, right next to the person. He was certified years ago by NAUI and I recently with PADI. Even though PADI didn't require the "old fashion" sharing of one regulator, we have also practiced the passing back and forth of regs in a simulated OOA. We have also had the challenge of keeping back up regs in the triangle. The final challenge was free flow reg, at depth, which because of his body position at the time, he didn't see and I had to reach out and correct (turns out he heard it and was saying to himself, "hmm what is that?" when I grabbed it). Now we're talking about a possible change to long hose. Anyone take Rescue classes with a long hose configuration?

JoelW · 05-21-2002, 06:15 AM,

Starfish, I did rescue with a 5' hose and bungeed backup. There were a number of issues that the instructors had. One was that with a snorkel (used in class but I don't use one anytime else) unwrapping the hose takes more consciouse effort. It would be easier with a longer hose. I now use a 6' and should have just gone to a 7'. The other issue was removing my gear with the bungeed backup. The rescuer needs to remember it is there or the bungee needs to be weak enough that it will come apart if forgotten. The other thing you will find if you do rescue is with your new plate. The instructors I had were not thrilled by the plate either. In the real world if there is rescue situation there will be no trying to slide the gear off. Get a pair of shears or a knife and start cutting straps. So, for the class it was a little more difficult to work with someone in a plate. Derrick was in the same class but I don't remember if he had his 7' hose yet. JoelW

ccuda · 05-21-2002, 09:11 AM,

I have a couple of questions comments perhaps you can help clear up? Derrick mentioned the out of air situation for the experienced divers having difficulty with the airII, etc. But why wasn't a pre-dive safety check done prior to descent? We're all taught this from the beginning. All dives should begin with "what if's" scenarios. "You take my primary, I take your octo, where's your weight release, what's this, what's that," etc. Especially if you are diving with someone for the first time. Many of the situations of out of air, or equipment exchanges should be addressed log before entry into the water. Did the instructor, experienced diver, etc in that situation ever discuss that? Having knowledge of what is on your back and in your mouth is very helpful, those guys are lucky. It was said that diving with a fellow DIR diver, each would know their postions and roles to play, but what if you encounter other diver(s) in the water and one approaches you in a panic, it's not easy to deal with a panic diver? Do they teach you how to deal with the approach of someone unknowing of your configuration underwater? Joel, you mentioned that your Rescue instructor having a problem with the back plate. I also dive with one, but can see why there is a concern from your instructor. You mention to just cut the plate off. Yet this is an issue since you should maintain physical contact with one hand with the patient to avoid losing the patient in waves, currents, slipping under the waters surface and to feel for response. Also, the first priority to establish breathing and maintain an open airway well before removal of gear. Once that is started it needs to be maintained. If you are maintain rescue breathing, without another diver's aid, you may have less hands free to be able to handle additional equipment such as shears, etc. It may be much easier to maintain control of the postion of the patient and have one hand free to alternate between pinching the nose (or maintaining a seal on teh rescue mask), and the other to attempt equipment removal, one step at a time while keeping the breaths going at a very quick pace. I've dove with many divers with all sort of configurations, imagine rebreathers and others as well, and I found pre-planning is always as good. And all your suggestions to practice the skills over and over is really a great step as well!

JoelW · 05-21-2002, 11:29 AM,

ccuda, It sounds like you are familiar with rescue procedures and you are correct. Â If it just you and the victim you do what you have to. Â If that means you have to leave the gear on, you leave the gear until you get to someplace where you can deal with the gear. Â Inflate the bag and get the face of the diver with a problem out of the water. Start to exit. The most important part is to get the victim to a safe location. Â Once the victim is in a decent location then work on the rest. Â If you have the time check out what the victim is wearing while they are being moved. Â It will make dealing with it easier later. Â If there is more than one rescuer the decision of when to remove gear gets easier. Â I would be willing to bet though that when in a good location I could have shears out and your harness off during a couple of the 5 second breaks while doing rescue breathing. Â So I am not going to agree with my instructor that a plate is a bad choice for diving. Having said the above, it has just occurred to me this might be worth practicing as well. Â I have an extra bp/wing to which I could rig a "repairable" harness that had a couple of replaceable sections that could be cut to really practice the drill. Â It could be used to go through the whole scenario. Â That might be added to the occasional practice list. I can't say that I have practiced any full rescue scenarios since the class last year. Â It would be interesting to see how it compares to someone in a standard BC. One thing about up here is that it is not very likely that someone is going to come of the low viz and grab your reg. How would they know that you are there? Â I can't comment on this since I have never had it happen. Â What I have read more commonly is that an OOA diver is more likely to grab what is in your mouth as opposed to look for where an octo is hidden. Â So if they grab the long hose it is not a problem, I don't have to search for the backup, it's under my chin and the other diver has room if he/she needs it. Like you, I have no problem diving with people in other gear. Â If I have never dove with them before I pay real close attention to what they are wearing. Â I also go over signals and procedures before getting under the water. Â I have met some people up here that I wouldn't dive with again regardless of what they are wearing. I think that the problem that most have with Air 2s, Octo +s, etc. is that in an emergency they confuse the issue. Â Before the emergency the deflator is where the deflator has always been. Â In an emergency the first thought is air and then out. Â The out is now a problem because the conditioned response to having a deflator where it has always been is goofed up. Â It is not there, even though it is 3" away. Â Add to that, how many people use the pull dump as opposed to lifting the hose to dump air? Â With an Air 2 the pull dump needs to be used. Â So, a different set of motions is required. Â It comes back to the practice issue again. Â But, with 2 independent second stages the motions required for the deflator don't change. Â So, in my mind, an emergency doesn't require quite as much mental shift when the integrated air is not used. Â But once again, dive what you are comfortable with and what you feel is safe. JoelW

Derrick · 05-21-2002, 06:13 PM,

ccuda, I left out some infomation about the first Air2 OOA incident (thats what I get for trying to read/reply to this message board while trying to work). The instructor was video taping his wife who is his long term buddy. Like a lot of divers videotaping or using a camera, they tend to ignore their buddy. He wasn't paying attention to his buddy or his air. So when he ran out of air, the closest person around was his sister in law. She had the air2. He didn't know before the dive, but she should have known. Big mistake on her part. The others should have practiced with their equipment. That is one of the good things that GUE stresses. At the begining of every dive, each team does a series of checks. I don't have my notes with me so I am just typing what I remember. Equipment check starting at the top of the divers and working their way down. So they both know exactly what equipment they have, what they don't have, and if working or not. Then a bubble check to make sure no leaks in regulators, values, etc. Dive plan briefing, OOA drills (s-drills), value shutoff drills. I am sure I forgot a few things. Pre-dive planning seems to be the first thing that is forgotten once divers are out of the class in any agency. Derrick

05-22-2002, 04:17 AM,

I would think that a BP harness would be easier to get off someone in an emergency situation i.e. one buckle to pull and it slides off? (As previously stated, I'm just getting mine, so maybe I'm putting my foot in my mouth.) I know that getting out of my "old" vest required undoing two clips and the velcro cumberbun. I agree with the previous statements that knowing what your buddy is using and predive discussion are invaluable. I also believe that a good buddy is someone very close to you or at most two kicks away. I have great difficulty with some of the discussions on the other board which state that the only good divers are DIR divers. Like any high risk job or hobby, those who know their surroundings, prepare for all possible events, train and practice regularly and who don't assume they know everything usually are better at what they do. I have administered CPR is a real world situation, I have been involved in real world fire and search & rescue situations, so I have real world experience. Nothing prepares you 100% for the real thing, but practice and training and situational awareness go a long long way.

Chris · 05-22-2002, 04:28 AM,

You make some good points Starfish, especially about real world situations and how you can never be prepared for that, but practice and simulations can help you know what to do in case it does happen. I also agree that you should dive how you are comfortable diving and how you feel safe. I have never seen a DIR configuration in person, so if I dive with someone who is DIR (or close) I will get to know the gear before getting in the water. I know you should do this anyway, but in particular with gear you are not at all familiar with. One example is that I would have no idea what to do with 7' of hose without getting tangled in it! Will be interesting to see how that is wrapped and so forth.